Copyright © 1989 NLThomas
All Rights Reserved

Contents:

1. 1989 interview with the late Glenn Holley, W SHOSHONE Elder
By Paul Nellen, Hamburg ~ Germany Copyright © 1989

2. 1989 interview with Gloria Derby, Lander Co. Commissioner, on Rock Creek Dam Project (Derby: "I don't think it's destruction when flooding an area.")
By Paul Nellen, Hamburg, Germany ~ Copyright © 1989

Interview with the late Glenn Holley, Battle Mountain Indian Colony, Fall 1989.
By Paul Nellen, Hamburg, Germany C1989. From my video footage.

Glenn Holley: The Rock Creek dam itself ... is a sacred shrine for the Western Shoshone people. It's within the the territory of the Tossawehes, the people that had signed the treaty of Ruby Valley in 1863. So the Tossawehe band or the people that descended to the original signers of that treaty... When you're talk about Rock Creek you're talking about Tossawehe quarry, you're talking about Tuscarora. Those areas are sacred to those peoples and also to the Western Shoshone. So here comes the US Government proposing that the Western Shoshone accept 1$ 25 Cents an acre for their lands which was depleted down to 25 cents an acre some years back. By doing that they would extinguish the Western Shoshone title to those lands.

For a number of years we've been fighting against the Federal Government, telling them that the BLM and other agencies of the Government has no authority to eleviate or to make any agreement or to lease or to sell any indian lands which is within that jurisdiction from that treaty. The Western Shoshone are saying that that agreement is made between 2 Governments: the US-Government on one side and the Western Shoshone nation on another.

When that treaty of peace and friendship was negotiated in 1863 that became the supreme law of the land. We want other Government with the USA to understand that's not a treaty to session of land. The treaty was primarely made with the Western Shoshone people, because there was a civil war going on with the USA Government at that point. What they wanted was a financial background to support the civil war. This was one way that they felt: that gold could be transfered from California tru the indian territory back east to supp. the civil war. They came out here and they talked about peace and friendship.

If you was to look at the Western Shoshone country you will see that 86% of the state of Nevada under that treaty of Ruby Valley is still indian land, it's Western Shoshone lands. The land is never been ceded. So the US-Government to their courts are saying: we have extinguished your title. First they started with the Taylor Grazing Act. The TAYLOR GRAZING ACT does not ext. titles from anybody. Its illegal form. The T.G.A. doesn't implicate any problems or it doesn't take any rights away from any. All the TAYLOR GRAZING ACT does is to control and to make the land more useble by people that are grazing livestock. That theory did not work in the courts.

So they went to "gradual encroachment". In the courts they said we have extinguished your titles to Gradual Encroachment. Encroachment also is not a legal form to take lands away from anybody. So than they said, well, to the Indian Claims Commission we ext. your title by you accepting the monetary settlement. That theory is erronious for the simple reason that the distribution that they talk about have never existed (0,0608). Number 1 in order for any tribes to accept any distribution a plan will have to be made by those tribes or constituent bands an implement a plan of how that money will be distributed per capita, per individual, the administrated costs and whatever that needs to be done. Once that is implemented then that goes to the Secr. of Interior of the BIA. There they have to look at this. Once they disapprove or approve that particular plan, if they disapprove that plans by whatever means that comes back to that tribes and those constituent bands implecating to them amendments have to been made in accord as to whatever rules that they have. Once the Int. Dpt. and the tribe agree to a distribution plan that goes to the US Congress. The US Congress then sits down. They revue the whole distribution plan. Once that is approved and then the Congress of the US will make a public law for distributing the money as a monetary settlement for those lands or whatever means that needs to be done.

In this case, the Western Shoshone case that has never been done. There was some talk about it, but it had never existed. And still today it has never existed. The monetary settlement, the distribution plan that they are talking about in the courts have never existed. What did happen in accordance to federal rules and regulations any moneys that is put in a trust basis for any indian tribes will have to draw interest. So what the Temoak said did the money, the 26 Mio. $ they are reportedly talking about set in a trust bank was not drawn interest. It was in violation of their rules and regulations. The money was transfered in several banks into Arizona. Today the baring interest of that has come to about 58 or 59 Mio $. This is what the US Government with the constituent entities are saying that we want to wipe this off of the records because it's so old, because the ICC supposed to be did this or they are assuming a lot of erronious statements they are illegal a fraudulent ways of taking things away from tribes of indians.

So they are saying you must distribute this money because we are saying that those old records will have to be abolished which is -again- is erronious. If the people himselfs was to sit down and make a review of how this court system had worked throughout the years. Number 1 we are in a court that are not for the indian people. You have the Supreme Court. They're not there to make a decision that is justice, primarily because they know that the Indian people are thrown at their sides (no chance or power to fight against s.o.). We are not their peers. Most of us because of our way of life, our religion and our unwritten laws don't want to vote in their elections. If we vote in their election we are breaking our laws which is unwritten. These laws are made by the creator to preserve and to protect NEWE SOGOBIA, which is Mother Earth.

Some of the people are thinking that this is a political struggle, they should vote to have somebody put in an office to do certain things for them. Maybe in some parts of the country it does work but here it doesn't work. The US Government in lot of ways a lot of people think the US is a great country for prosperity. They go on. As far as the indigenous peoples are concerned that isn't the case. They make a treaty with foreign countries. They adhere to those treaties that was made with that other foreign countries. But their treaties that's made with the indigenous nations or tribes of indians are never adhered to. They got their mind up schemes of how to steal to their fraudulant ways of stealing their land because they know that those lands are very valuable such as in the Western Shoshone territory. As I mentioned the lands which is in the Western Shoshone territory (Glenn shows us a map) runs it takes 86% of the State of Nevada, it goes up into Idaho and then it comes right down into California. Within the territory the Western Shoshone country, the land is rich in natural minerals. You're talking about gas, you're talking about oil, gold, silver... This is very valuable to the Non-Indians. They look at things as Dollars and figures. To an Indian it's not. To an Indian the lands are forever free. The beauty of those things are forever be free as the birds, the eagles or whatever is that in NEWE SOGOBIA. They're there for a purpose, each and everyone of those things have just as much rights as anybody else to be here. But to the Non-Indians they don't see that. It's beyond what they could comprehend too. So to them they become insects. They have to be exterminated. The wildlife at some point had become extinct because of that attitude. The water then becomes polluted because of the mining activities or other activities. These things are very devastating not just for the indigenous people but for all mankind throughout the whole world.

As An Instance Now Rock Creek Project.

Rock Creek to the Western Shoshone especially to the Tossawehe is a shrine. It's a church for these people which are sick, feeble. Or the doctoring people, the medicine people, they go to Rock Creek to heal and to get power from the creator and the spirits to continue on with their thing. It's never complete. But it's something that the creator himself has implemented under his laws for those peoples to do that. So now when we talk(ing) about these places we are talking about something that is very sacred. So here comes now the County Commissioners of Lander County with the voice of the public people, saying we want to build a dam for recreational purpose, fishing or whatever purpose that it needs to be done there. The water will backed up and, number 1 they have to look at the desacration of those people that are buried in Rock Cr. it self from the mouth of the canyon to the end ... to that whole area. The religious part of the Western Shoshone will be for ever abolished and destroyed. I don't think any indigenous people would go into the Vatican and destroy the objects that are in that church. When they talk about our religious way of life -- the way that they do us -- we become subjects under their laws toward her to certain things. Those laws are made for their people. They're not made for the indigenous people.

When I say "indigenous" I'm talking about all natural people within an atmosphere. Some of us are being taking off of our land, put on some desolated portion of a land that is worthless as they say - reservation setup under certain executive orders. And than they find out (...?) And in later years they find maybe it's rich in oil or other deposits of natural minerals, then they pass another executive orders to the congressional people or whatever means or within their laws. Then they say, well they all scheme up some type of a theory by stating: well, you people are living poorly, you shouldn't live like this, so they removed them from this one portional land, moving some place else where they think this portion is worthless. Then they take over certain amounts of that just to extract those valuable things from them. (Flugzeugbrummen) For years and years the US Government through their fraudulent ways of continuing to do this, and it's more so today in this modern world, in modern times. It's more so today because of the laws they are implementing under those people. They are saying because the economical development, we want to do this. So they extinguish your rights to do certain things for their own personal vendetta. So the tribes themselves will suffer.

(In past issues we have run several pieces about the Rock Creek Dam Project. These articles have consistently pointed out the Native American viewpoint regarding the construction of the dam which would devastate or eliminate sacred Native American ground. Just this month, our offices received the following interview submitted by Paul Nellen of West Germany. Nellen had interviewed Gloria Derby, a Lander County Commissioner about the dam project. [...] Editor.)

Q: What is the reason behind establishing the Rock Creek Dam?

A: The purpose of the dam is for flood control and recreation.

Q: Are you aware that Indians reclaim some religious and medical approaches there, that they have claims there? How do you fulfill their claims?

A: We don't ignore what the Indians say. We have heard that they have religious activities and/or training for their medical doctors in this area. We are currently working with these Indians to try to come to a mutual agreement. But we don't ignore the Indians.

Q: What is your definition of a "mutual agreement"?

A: Something which satisfies them and allows us to build the dam also.

Q: Do you think that the interestsof recreation are so important that the possible destruction of this area is a wise decision?

A: First of all, I don't think it's destruction when flooding an area. It puts them under water but it doesn't destroy (the area).

Q: How can the Indians reach (the area) when it is under water?

A: You are asking two separate questions. First of all, we're talking about destruction. I don't think it is destructive to an area to be flooded.I'm saying that it will limit access. Limiting access is not the same as destruction.If there is water in the area, and they cannot get to the sites as they do-yes they lost their access. But their area is not destroyed! They cannot reach the exact spot where they want to be. So, in that case, if we do not want to interfere with that, we couldn't build the dam. That is the only answer.

Q: If you build the dam, you will take the healing area, and you will take the water. It will dry out their cultural place. It is like a tempe, it is like putting the Vatican underwater. You cannot say putting the Vatican underwater is not destructive.

A: The reason I don't think it is destructive is because if you build the dam and flood it, and then broke the dam down, the water rushes out and the land will still be there.It would not be destroyed!. If I understand the Indian's purposes correctly, it is only the moving water that they worship. But the water will not be totally dammed. It will go over the spillway. I have never herd that the Indians respect the Rock Creek Cliffs as a temple.

[...Water and mining activities...]

Q: You did say there could be an agreement between the Indians and the County authorities on behalf of the Rock Creek Dam Project. When you really respect the Indian rights, then you can really do nothing. Because they have rights there. They have the Freedom of Religion Act. They have a say in what is good for their land-not you. What would you say if the Indians came and said, "Oh let us destroy your Church where you always pray on Sunday"?

A: There is a difference between burning down a structure and flooding a piece of land which can be reclaimed. You can not reclaim a structure that has been burned down. There are two or three options here: either an agreement that has been worked out with the Indians and the County whereby the Indians agree with the building of the dam...

Q: But it doesn't look like that option...

A:...or the other option... start construction and it goes to court. In recent years the Supreme Court has several times ruled that certain religious beliefs are not enough reason to hold up progress for a majority of the people. Those are the decisions of the Supreme Court, it has nothing to do with me. This has happened in the past, it might happen again. That's all.-